Traditional Publishing is Harder than Hollywood?! 3 Publishing Myths Busted with Mara Williams | Ep 65
True or False: I had an easier time making money in Hollywood than I do in traditional publishing.
TRUE.
Here are the 3 publishing myths author Mara Williams and I need you to know:
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00:00 Mara's Dog Steals the Show
Sophia Chang (00:00)
Oh my god, he's so cute. I can't — I'm going to spend—
Mara:
And now he's really over my shoulder.
Sophia:
—the entire time just like staring at myself.
00:07 Intro
Welcome everyone to The Sophia Chang Show. I have such a special guest for you today. This is Mara Williams, who drafted her first novel in third grade on a spiral notebook — a love story about a golden retriever and the stray dog who admired her from beyond the picket fence. I am already dying of cuteness, and I really hope that gets published soon.
Mara:
Yeah, any day now.
Sophia:
Now, Mara writes about strong, messy women finding their way in the world. Mara's the author of The Truth Is in the Detours, which just debuted, and The Epicenter of Forever. When not writing or reading, she can be found enjoying California's beaches, redwoods, and trails with her husband, three kids, and disobedient dog — I beg to differ, your dog has already won me over. And I hope that he appears and makes guest appearances.
Mara:
Yeah, he'll have his moment. You'll see him. He's not always so well behaved. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Sophia:
Yeah. Tell us a little bit about yourself — like, what really happened between that amazing dog love story in grade school and the debut?
Mara:
Yeah, that's such a good question. So I've always written — you know, as my bio states, I started writing as a little kid and wrote novels through grade school, high school, and college, and majored in English lit. But I think in my early 20s—
01:50 Practicality gets in the way
—that sort of huge wave of doubt crept in, and also that fear of going for something that was such a huge dream. I think I let practicality get in the way. And while I had always written, I hadn't actually finished a novel. I have book upon book in drawers that were half-finished, three-quarters of the way through. And it wasn't until I established my career, had my family, and kind of got to that point in your life — especially as a woman — where I got over the fear of perfectionism and decided: I'm going to do this. I'm going to finish a full novel and actually prove to myself that I could do it. And so that was many years later — about seven years ago, actually — when I finished my first full-length novel, and I thought, okay, this has a beginning, middle, and then end, and I can call it complete. So that's really where my journey started, even though I'd never stopped writing. I'd never stopped wishing for it, but I kind of got to the point where I needed to do more than wish for it and actually make it.
So I wrote my first novel — it was about 2018 — kind of just pushed through and finished some version of a draft without getting trapped up in what had stopped me all along: this isn't good enough, this isn't perfect, this isn't as polished as I want it to be, this doesn't look like the books I see on my shelves. And what I didn't know at the time is almost nobody's first draft looks like something that's finished and on a shelf. So I just had to give myself—
Sophia:
That's right.
Mara:
—permission to write it. Write something that could be terrible, that didn't have to be perfect, that I would then turn around and fix.
Sophia:
Was there a specific thing — like a moment of revelation — or what made you finally click and go, that's it, we're gonna do this, forget the perfectionism?
04:26 Overcoming Perfectionism and Fear
Mara:
Yeah, I wish there was one moment. I think it was just maturity, honestly. I think it was growing up and realizing — by that point I'd had my children, they were getting a little bit older — and I had sort of realized enough to know that perfectionism is really boring, it's unattainable, it's something that holds you back.
And so I think there were a lot of moments as I got older that started to prove that to me. And it was really just a moment of quiet — my family was on a vacation, we were having a lovely time, and I was on the beach, I was going for a run, and I had this moment of clarity. I'm like, okay, if not now, when? When am I gonna finally feel ready to do this, and what's stopping me other than time and all those other things? I had a demanding job, and kids, and the dog, and all of the things that do stop us — but that was it. It was just an "if not now, when." I was on a run and I had this line of dialogue that just came into my mind, and I wanted to chase it. So I came home from that trip and just sort of mentioned, I think, to my husband and my sisters, like, would you think I was crazy if I just started to write a book? And I have a lovely family — they're like, no, of course you should, go for it.
So it wasn't really an epiphany. It was — I think sometimes when you get to a certain age, as a woman especially, you have to get back to yourself. You have to let all the constraints of society and everything everybody's told you about what you should be doing sort of fall away, and figure out who you've always been, and find your way back to that.
Sophia:
I just felt this bolt of electricity come through me when you said that. Oh my gosh, so relatable. The thing I love about having writers on the show is that you guys say the most beautiful things.
So the reason why I was so excited to have you on is because you fit the ethos of this show so much — the no-BS. Everything I've read from you was so honest. You talked about the things that we all talk about privately, but you opened the door wide open. It was almost like you let all the moths out, you let the light in. And I feel like every time we do that — as writers, as people, and especially as women — it takes that shame away, and it just makes everything feel so much more connected. Oh my gosh, I relate to you, I understand you, you're literally speaking what I'm thinking. And so I've always appreciated that honesty of yours. And I remember the first time we talked, I was like — Mara, am I the loser of traditional publishing? What is going on? And then you told me your story, and it just makes us feel so much better. And so that's why I brought you on here — so that we could bust some myths today, because there are so many assumptions about publishing. And I can tell you this, I'm just gonna start by saying this—
06:14 Hollywood is easier than trad publishing
—I went through Hollywood, and I had an easier time making money there than I do in traditional publishing.
Mara:
Whoo!
Sophia:
And this was 20 years ago, when it was still extremely racist and extremely whitewashed. I still — I booked the second audition I ever went on. It was a commercial for 7UP. I got into SAG instantly, I was paid at the union rate. It wasn't easy, I went on tons of auditions I didn't book — but at least I was booking. Traditional publishing is not like that. People think—
Mara:
Yeah. No.
Sophia:
—you write this book, I finished the book, that's the hard part.
07:03 Myth #1: My First, I Mean Fourth Book
I'm sorry to say, for people like you and me who write a lot, who draft a lot of novels — that is not the hard part. So let's help me bust this myth. Tell me exactly — because you said seven years ago you began the journey — so in seven years, how many books is that?
Mara:
Yeah, well, first, I just want to say how sobering it is that you said that about Hollywood, because I think everybody knows how hard it is to make it in Hollywood — it's a cliché, it's well known at this point. But to hear that it's actually harder in publishing — I don't have that other frame of reference, so that is sobering. So I started out seven years ago, and in that span, I wrote and queried — so sending queries to agents. Before I got my agent, I was on my sixth book. So I wrote, polished, edited, and tried to market at least three of those books. There were a couple that I wrote and they went straight in the drawer, just because I knew they weren't ready and I had other books I was more excited about. But yeah, I didn't get my agent until my sixth book, and had tried — with my second book, I'd made somewhat of an effort to get an agent. And on my fifth book, I made a huge effort to get an agent and it didn't end up panning out, even though all the markers were that that was gonna be my book — I had lots of full requests, lots of interest, but none of them actually panned out with an offer. And then it was on my sixth book where I received two agent offers.
So it was a lot. I mean, when I think about how many words — we think about a novel of about 100,000 words, more or less — that's a lot of words to write and edit and polish and fall in love with. I think that's the hard part: you fall in love with these characters, you fall in love with the book, and then have to set it aside. And I do think there's a lot of value in that. I think it's hard, sometimes, on the flip side, for some people to get the deal on their very first book, because for me, at least, I would be fearful — like, did I only have one book in me? Do I know how to replicate this? Do I know how to do it again? So I think there is some value in having a lot of books under your belt before you get a deal and have to write under the pressure of publishing and the timeframe. And it also took me several books to really figure out my voice, and figure out what I should be writing, what I was best at, what I was most passionate about — what was uniquely mine instead of maybe what had inspired me by other writers and other books. I definitely think there's value in having gone through and done all of that work, but it is difficult to really stomach that all of these books will not see the light of day.
09:54 Finishing the book is just the prologue
It is a goal of so many people to write a novel. But once you realize you've written a novel — that writing "The End" on the first book is barely the beginning. It's kind of the prologue of the journey, honestly. I'm not even sure I consider that where my journey began, because it feels so far removed from how much work it took to get to the next step.
Sophia:
I wish I had known you when I first started writing — when I first started trying to do this professionally over 10 years ago — because, I mean, I'm so happy that I know you now to hear you say this. But the stories — what I was surrounded by was seeing my peers and colleagues quickly finding success, hitting the agent right away and then going right to auction, six-figure book deal, there we go. And so, yeah, I didn't hear these stories. So to hear that this is actually more common than is advertised is very helpful for me even — not just everybody out—
Mara:
Yeah.
Sophia:
—there who's still trying and in the trenches.
Mara:
I mean, unfortunately, I'm a little bit of — I wouldn't say I'm a pessimist by heart, but I am really cautious. I don't expect success, especially when it's me. So I read all the dire statistics. It's something like — I've seen reported either you get an agent like 0.002% of the time, and I've seen it as low as 0.0005% of the time. And so I looked at those figures, and looking at how many requests an agent receives, you realize — A, it's not a meritocracy, and it's so according to taste, which feels really unfair. But at the same time, this industry is all about taste — the taste of the agent, of the editor, and once you get up to acquisitions, then it's the taste of the reader, and whether your book actually falls into the hands of the right reader — who is looking for a book like yours, who doesn't have some biases that might turn them against a book like yours, who actually is in the right headspace at the right time to read it and enjoy it and really absorb what the author is intending to say. So I think — you hear time and time again, it's so subjective, but it's more than that. It's luck. It's timing. It's being in the right inbox at the right time. And I think I went into it knowing this feels like this Herculean task — to not only write a book, to finish a book, to find that needle in the haystack of an agent who is open and receptive to my book, my pitch, at the right time. And then to get to the next filter, which is an even smaller funnel — an editor who's looking for a book exactly like the one you're writing at that particular time.
I think it's interesting, your experience, because you went through such a — it almost feels like you won the lottery with your first experience. Whereas I know a lot of people who have just been in the trenches for years. And then I was in a group of people on submission, so I had this broad base, this big representative sample, and realized — okay, it's a little bit like winning the lottery when you get all the way through. And then once you get a book published, there's so many other barriers, you know? Yeah.
Sophia:
The book that got me Reese's Book Club, LitUp, and my agent is my fourth book. I actually started — so, like you, I'm late to the game. There's a lot of people who are 16 years old writing novels. I wouldn't have even known how to do that at 16.
Mara:
Yeah.
Sophia:
I was taking classes, I worked on the craft. I've been writing since I was four or five years old. But yeah, I wouldn't have even known how to complete a novel. I didn't complete a novel until NaNoWriMo — that was my first time. And then I did three novels. And yeah, like you, each one had some measure of success that let me know I was on the right track, but it was never any cigar. The first one was an Amazon Breakthrough semi-finalist, back in the day when they had that contest — I'm like, okay, good. Was panned by Publishers Weekly, they were super harsh back in the day. Then the second one did get some full requests, won some pitch contests. The third one got super close — I was getting fulls from really, really top agents, but — you know, I also did not have — this was over 10 years ago — I didn't have, I think, the tenacity that age brings to you.
Mara:
Yeah.
Sophia:
You know, they always say that a lot of marathon winners are older, because they know how to — it's just a mental thing.
14:02 When I Went Blind I Thought My Dream Was Over
And then, you know, life got in the way. I had to make money, so making money takes up all the time. And so, yeah — and so I didn't come back to it until after my illness, and I became disabled. I went blind, I was in a wheelchair — the two things I love the most in life, dancing and writing, were taken away from me almost overnight, and I didn't think I would be able to see or walk again. And both happened from years and years of chemo, lots of hard work and sweat — and I still get monthly infusions to keep the disease at bay, but there is some permanent damage already. So, but I'm seizing that moment — I think, when that happened, when crises happen, and you get to a certain age, crises have happened, and you realize you have no idea what's going to happen tomorrow. And so you're like, I can't mess around anymore.
Mara:
Yeah.
Sophia:
And so, that's one — I really went for it. And yeah, and that fourth novel hit it. I poured myself into it — so having that die on submission, I think, was so painful, because I poured everything into it, and it paid off — Reese's Book Club took — no, those people are like, we can see this on TV now, and I was like, me too. My agent too was like, this is the voice of the next — you know, contemporary fantasy, or the next generation. And I'm like, I am. And then traditional publishing didn't agree. And so, like you, it's like book after book, you just keep churning it.
16:23 Keeping Your Sense of Self
Mara:
Yeah, yeah. And what it has to come down to is the love of writing. Because there will always be some barriers ahead, whatever it is, whether it's traditional publishing — it's such a cliché that the goalposts keep moving, but they really do. And I'm trying so hard to fight against that, trying not to look, keeping my eyes on my own paper, realizing that this is my journey, it's not anybody else's, and everybody goes at a different pace. I have some friends who are on submission right now, and it's really hard — the wait, the not knowing, the eternal sort of hanging on, your mental health resides on an email coming in. And they're at the point where they're seeing other people get deals, and — I just had a conversation with a friend yesterday, and I said, this is truly not a race, because there are folks that get out ahead, so to speak, and they get their deal right away, maybe on their first book, but they may struggle with their second or their third. They may underperform publishers' expectations, and then they have a hard time getting the next deal. Somebody else may get a really small deal, or have to wait until the sixth, seventh, eighth book, but then they hit it big on the ninth — and then they jump out ahead. It's just, we're all in this together, and we all, at the end of the day, love books. We love reading, we love writing, we love making up worlds. And sometimes those worlds make it into the hands of readers, and sometimes they stay in our heads, or in our drawers, or in our computer files. And it's very hard to stomach. But in many ways, I'm really grateful that I did this when I was older — I don't think I could have handled it. I look at some of the 20-somethings — writers — and I'm like, this is such a difficult industry to navigate and just keep your own sense of self, your positivity, your hope, and it's really hard. I can't imagine — I wouldn't have been able to do it in my 20s. I would have been way too insecure and looking for that external validation that doesn't always come, and it certainly doesn't come consistently. And if you're too hung up on that external validation, if you're so pleased by a beautiful review, you can be just as crushed by a negative one — and they're both going to happen, because, again, this industry is about taste. What is one person's favorite book will be another person's least favorite book, and that's all it comes down to. But also, for me, I don't think I could have written a book in my 20s, no matter how much skill or craft I have, because I didn't have that much to say about the world. Some people do when they're younger. For me, I needed to live a little bit, and hurt a little bit, and go through some stuff before I had a lot to say.
Sophia:
Some of the books that are with my agent are actually those original three books, completely rewritten. And I look at them—
Mara:
Nice.
Sophia:
—and I'm like, oh my gosh, thank goodness, I would have been so embarrassed. How awful.
Mara:
Yes, right?
Sophia:
I would have been like, this is what people think my writing would be — but thank goodness—
Mara:
Yeah.
Sophia:
—I have a chance now, as a better writer, to make them better.
Mara:
Yeah, I just did that. I took a book — it was my second book I wrote — and I had an idea of a way to make it fuller and completely rewrote it. And at first I told my agent, like, ah, I think I need to sort of polish it because I'd centered the pitch. And then I got into it, and I'm like, this is completely — like, going down to the foundation and rebuilding it from the ground up. And I'm so glad I did, because I think there was some — what I noticed, just being kind to my former self — there was some beauty in it, and there were some lines that were really beautiful and insightful, but the structure of it, and actually the drama and the pacing, was all off, because I didn't know as much about structuring a book. And so it's almost like I kept the major beats, but the way I think about it — instead of it being almost like a metronome of beats, it's more like an orchestra. I have a lot more going on, a lot more character development, a lot more plot — and I was just able to fill in, so that it's not an outline of a book, it's an actual book-book. But yeah, I would have been embarrassed if that were on shelves, for sure.
Sophia:
I swear, everything you're saying, I feel like you're coming into my brain and—
Mara:
Hahaha.
Sophia:
—you're just speaking to it.
20:41 Myth #2: I'm rich!
This kind of brings me to that second myth, where we were talking about — you know, it's a long game. This is also not a get-rich-quick scheme. At least not one that I thought it would be. I thought, you land that one deal — bam, come on in, money — into my account. And, you know, when I talk to you, and even when I talk to other people, and when we start to be honest about it, it becomes very apparent — I have made so little money. And then, I found out you actually still work a full-time job.
Mara:
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, again, I think just because I always have such — I don't want to say low expectations, I just like to be pleasantly surprised — and I have been an artist before. You and I shared that we're both dancers, and dance was something — obviously, I think everybody knows you don't get rich quick in dance. That is the surefire way to not make a lot of money. And because I did that, I really chose to do another career that I love, and it's an amazing opportunity, I'm fully invested in it. But I did find out early that you're never going to fall in love with a job just because it makes you money — but also, it's very easy to resent something that you once loved if it makes you no money and you actually can't support yourself. And so I went into writing books with — I'm going to write a book because I love books, because I love writing — and never really set out with the expectation of, this is going to be a money-making scheme. I think, for me, getting published was really about being part of the conversation of other authors. It was about hopefully giving to even one person the level of comfort and excitement and world-opening that books have done for me.
But then, you know, obviously I learned very quickly that that was probably the right approach, because writing — there are people that hit the jackpot, there are really big, big deals you see, but I think it's the exception rather than the rule. And I tried to go into it thinking, I'm probably not going to be the exception. I'll be the rule — if something amazing happens, great. But even for those big deals — like, when we think about a six-figure deal, some publishers are breaking it down into four or five payments. So when you think about actual numbers — say somebody gets a $100,000 deal, it's a six-figure deal, it sounds like a lot of money — broken down maybe between two books, that's $50,000 a book. And if those payments are stretched over three years, the annual income from that isn't — enough. I live in a very high-priced area, one of the highest-priced areas in the country. And I have three kids, going off to college. So, you know, yes, I have a full-time job.
Sophia:
Oof.
Mara:
Luckily, I love my full-time job, and it is amazing. But I think there are very few people who go into it, get the big deal, where their big deal actually pays off, so then they can get another big deal, and then get the movie adaptation from it, etc., etc. It's just rare.
Sophia:
Yeah, I think a lot of times people also don't say that it's also rare to earn out when you get such a big deal. That might be all the money you see for your book for the entire life of it.
Mara:
Yes, very rare. Yes.
Sophia:
And that might be it.
Mara:
Yes. And, you know, unfortunately, even if you get a smaller deal — because, I think, in a lot of ways, it's a gamble, right? The publishers are taking a chance on what the readers are going to want to buy, and they have limited marketing dollars, so they're going to put their marketing dollars where they think a book is going to pay off. So, you know, I think there's a challenge — and this is mostly just from what I hear from others — but if you get a big deal, there are some publishers that will put more marketing behind that, because they want to earn back their money, they made a big investment, they're going to invest more. If you have a smaller deal, you may not get the marketing dollars from the publisher, and then it's harder to get your name out there. So I think, when it comes down to it, this is art, and we're hoping and trying to make it a science and trying to make it all make sense — but sometimes you hit the zeitgeist, sometimes you don't. And I think it really is, in many ways, a gamble. And I, for one, feel really lucky to have my book out there, and to have a chance, and to be in there, and to keep the ability to keep writing. But I don't think it's a guarantee for anybody, no matter what size of the deal — if you get a deal, how long you're in the query trenches, how long you're on submission. It's all a bit of a guessing game about what's going to happen tomorrow.
Sophia:
Absolutely. And, you know, again, I'm so appreciative of you honestly telling everybody about this, because these are things that don't get talked about a lot. You see a lot about how to query and all this — you know, outside, really pretty stuff. But it's like, once you get in, though — get ready. Is there another myth that you have seen that needs to be talked about?
25:50 Myth #3: Trad v. Indie Marketing
Mara:
I think I saw — and this was in the heyday of publishing Twitter, which doesn't exist anymore, unfortunately — a lot of talk about the difference between indie and traditional publishing, and that the downside to indie publishing is you have to do all your own marketing, and in traditional publishing, you don't. But I think those lines are so blurred that it doesn't matter how you're published — you have to be out there, you have to be on social media, you have to be trying to market your book, you have to be present and really be — you know, nobody is going to advocate for your book as well as you are. So you have to be out there marketing and present, to be able to be the best spokesperson for your book and your brand. This past week, I was, like, wrapping advance reader copies to send out to bookstagrammers, and sort of enlisting my kids to do it, and getting them out to the post office. There's all sorts of things, and being active on social media.
I think, you know, there's also the flip side — there's a myth that you need this massive platform to publish a book, and I think that is overstated. I think you just need to be present. I had no active social media, other than lurking — I'm like a big lurker, I saw everything that was going on and learned, and used it to learn. I wasn't — I didn't know how to market myself when I didn't have a book to sell, I was like, what's the point of being on social media, I don't have anything to sell. And so I didn't really get on social media in an external way until I had, or was close to, a book deal. So you can still build it — and mine is really small — but I feel like I found the right people who sort of appreciate the types of books I write, and building slowly with real, authentic relationships. I find it's easy to make strong relationships with people who like the same types of books you like, because it says a lot about your values, what you're interested in, where you seek joy — there's a lot of ways to create that connection.
I think the myth is — I see people saying, all of one thing, that only indie authors really need to market, which is not true. And I also see the flip side of that — you need 100,000 followers in order to get a fiction book deal — which is also not the truth.
Sophia:
I really hope so, because I have been off social media for six years now, and so I'm like a nobody. And sometimes I wonder, is that what hurt me? Because I did hear — a friend of mine did get feedback from a pass that was like, the editor was like, well, maybe if you had some kind of platform or something else going on with this. I'm like, yikes, that — it kind of feels true these days when you see all the TikTok, million-dollar book deals coming—
28:12 Will TikTok get me published?
Mara:
Yeah. Right.
Sophia:
—off of selling five tropes you list on TikTok and then you do the little dance.
Mara:
I mean, there is some of that. I think there are some publishers that are really looking to invest in personality and then building the book around that. But it's not every publisher, and it's not a hard-and-fast rule. It's not gonna hurt — unless you're incredibly problematic. And then, if you have presence on social media — no, I think F-bombs matter, I drop a lot—
Sophia:
I worry about that. I drop a lot of F-bombs.
Mara:
—of F-bombs. In my books, actually — I'm waiting for my editor to say, that's too many, what are you doing, first page, what are you doing? So far they haven't. I don't know, knock on wood, I'm not sure. My book that comes out next year, I was like, that might be — I was counting the inappropriate words in the first chapter.
Sophia:
Can you share the number?
Mara:
I don't think I wrote it down, but it was somewhere in the neighborhood — in the first chapter, the first 10 pages, there was at least one very inappropriate word on every single page. Because it's a dramatic moment — I'm not giving anything away — this woman who was newly divorced walks into a cafe and finds her ex-husband, that she divorced that week, with his pregnant girlfriend — and she is nine months pregnant. So there's a little—
Sophia:
Yeah.
Mara:
—worthy of a few F-bombs. So no, but — problematic, unkind—
Sophia:
Okay, I love this already.
Mara:
—person, somebody who's not a good literary citizen and knocks other writers or — I think it can hurt you. But if you are engaging in the literary space, and being supportive and kind and present in the community, having more followers isn't — it's not going to hurt you, for sure. But, you know, I know plenty of examples of people who got deals where it's really about the work. And then there are flip-side examples where — what was it, a couple months ago, that Australian reality star just posted a TikTok about the books he liked and he got a deal.
Sophia:
Wow.
Mara:
I think those are—
Sophia:
It hurts.
Mara:
—the big, dramatic examples, you know? Because it's a business — we all have to sell books.
Sophia:
Yeah. Mm-hmm. No, well — yeah, we need to eat. Yeah.
Mara:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. We're all part of it. And the way I try to think about it, on the positive flip side, is there's some evidence that those big, big books and big personalities sort of subsidize a lot of the rest of the industry, you know? For every book that hits it huge, you're investing in the industry that can then cultivate new authors. So I try again, like — you know.
Sophia:
It is so true.
30:57 I thank Leigh Bardugo every day
I thank Leigh Bardugo every day.
Mara:
Because it is — you know, it's sort of like a — I don't want to say it's a Ponzi scheme, that's bad—
Sophia:
Well — hey, I'm glad you said it.
Mara:
No — just, it does take, it's a lot of betting, right? On new authors — it's betting that this particular book is gonna hit the moment. It's betting on culture, betting on both art, and also, when you think about it, a book that gets sold doesn't necessarily hit the shelves until a year and a half, sometimes two years, later. So it's a huge gamble. And any book that breaks through, I think, is a huge win for the industry, and a huge win for authors. The more people — when you pick up a book you love, unless it's the absolute best book you've ever read in your entire life and you have a book hangover — if you pick up a book you love, it encourages you to read more books. So it's a win for everybody, I think, when an author has a lot of success.
Sophia:
Thank you, Mar, so much for coming on and helping me bust these three really prevalent myths about publishing. I really hope that people hear this, and I know they're going to get so much out of this the way that I did. And stay tuned, everybody, because I've got Mara on again for a very, very important question about books and biceps. See you guys next time. Thank you, Mara.
Mara Williams (32:36)
Thank you.
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Sophia Chang is a Reese's Book Club LitUp fellow, disabled dancer, and extroverted writer. She hosts The Sophia Chang Show podcast where she shares No B.S. publishing stories and advice she wishes she'd known. Subscribe if you don't want to cry alone.
