After Your Book Debut, Author Envy, and Moving Goalposts w/ Chatham Greenfield | Ep 64
When you dream so big that everything you accomplish feels like a failure in comparison. Here's a pep talk (and reality check) from author Chatham Greenfield one year after your Big Five book debut:
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00:00 The Extroverted Writer Experience
Sophia Chang (00:00)
Welcome back to The Sophia Chang Show. Look who I have again — it is Chatham Greenfield, one more time. Chatham is the Reese's Book Club inaugural LitUp fellow alongside me — that is how we met and became friends. And Chatham's debut last year, Time and Time Again — today is the launch of their second book! Let us see it, we need to see this beautiful cover. Happy birthday, book.
Chatham:
It is, it's very beautiful. I'm obsessed with the sunsets — very lesbian sunset, if you ask me.
Sophia:
Yes, a lovely lesbian lavender. I had that for my—
Chatham:
Yeah, exactly. Pink, the yellow.
Sophia:
—senior thesis. I asked for a lesbian lavender from my lighting director.
Chatham:
That's what I'm hoping for. I'm hoping that maybe the next book will be lavender, you know? Yeah.
Sophia:
I like it, I like it.
Chatham:
Because I've got blue, and then pink, and then purple. I don't know.
Sophia:
I've got a question for you — is a tattoo in store? 'Cause, you know, some people tattoo when they get books out.
Chatham:
Yeah, I actually do not have tattoos. I actually cannot get tattoos because of one of my health conditions.
Sophia:
That's what I figured.
Chatham:
Yes. But maybe I should get a temporary one, I don't know. I think I need to do something just to commemorate them. I have this tote bag that looks like a library card — like it has the slots for checking it out. And I kind of want to add the titles of my books embroidered, and have the due date be the day it came out.
Sophia:
I love that.
Chatham:
So yeah, and so here is this one. Honestly, I can't believe it's here — it's always very surreal. Oh, yeah, let's do it, let's do it. Let's call Barnes & Noble, because that's where I got the tote bag — I think they'd want permission.
Sophia:
I'm seeing merch on your website. Let's license this out, people. So I've got a warning for my listeners this time: extroverts are here. Okay, this is like the craziest story — when you told me this, I was like, tell me, tell us, tell my listeners what happened.
Chatham:
Yes, so I was telling Sophia this because we are always discussing kind of — I think people think that being an extroverted writer is an oxymoron, like because it's such a solitary sort of job — at least that's how people perceive it. I don't know, we can talk about that more later, because I think there is a lot more collaboration than people realize. But yeah, I went to ALA over the summer, which is the American Library Association's annual conference — very cool, so many free books. I went for the Stonewall Honor ceremony, where I was getting an award for Time and Time Again, so that was very exciting.
So yeah, I was at ALA, the annual library conference, and I was going to meet up with a friend of mine for the first time in person — because, you know, as authors, we don't have an official office space, usually we connect with people online. And she basically warned me that she was an extrovert. She seemed a bit nervous, and was like, you know, I can kind of overwhelm people when I first meet them, I'm really eager — if you don't get overwhelmed, that's just my personality. And I'm like, well, that's my personality too, you know? And I think it's interesting that even as authors, we kind of tend to assume other authors are introverts. And I think a lot of authors are, but not all of us. Yeah.
Sophia:
I get sad when I hear stuff like that. And it reminds me of when I was in grad school for counseling psych, and it was all white, and there were just a few of us — and this is the one other Asian American female. She was like, you know, I'm really big, I take up a lot of space. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Why are you apologizing—
03:02 Women apologizing for existing — let's stop doing that
—I hate when, especially, women feel the need to have to even predicate that, or give some kind of preamble, or pre-editorialize — because I'm just like, we are just who we are.
Chatham:
Yeah, exactly. And it's like, yeah, we definitely shouldn't have to. But I think there is this sort of idea that we need to combat — the expectation that because we're writers, we're sitting alone every day and we have no social needs, no excitement meeting people. Yeah.
Sophia:
Every meme caters to that. Yeah, every meme is like — isn't it so hard to be a writer because you don't want to talk to anyone — and we're like, what are you talking about, where you've got crippling loneliness?
Chatham:
Yeah, it's like — I get a lot of energy from writing, but I also get a lot of energy from friendship and talking to people, you know? And I don't see people as much as I would like to, because of my health and because this job is so independent. But whenever I do connect with friends, whether it's a phone call or in person, I'm always like, wow, I'm so energized from this. It's such a unique sort of energy too, that I don't really get from much else. And yeah — we're breaking stereotypes, we're busting expectations here.
Sophia:
And you discuss the extrovert-introvert dynamic in your book.
04:43 Writing opposites attract and introvert characters when you're an extrovert
Chatham:
I do. I think some of that comes from a lot of places. I tend to write opposites-attract — I write romances, and they tend to be opposites-attract dynamics, mostly because I think that's interesting. I think it also might be because my partner is an introvert, for sure. Yeah, in Time and Time Again, Phoebe, the narrator, is very much an introvert — that was hard for me to write at first.
05:06 Marginalized authors can make things up too
And ironically, you know, there is sort of an idea that authors — especially marginalized authors — are writing ourselves into our books. Phoebe has sort of the lived experiences I have, of being Jewish and a lesbian and having irritable bowel syndrome. But personality-wise, she's the exact opposite of me. And when I tell people that, they're shocked. First of all, I'm like — yeah, I am just making stuff up, it's not a diary. With respect.
Sophia:
I love that you brought this up, because this happened to me years ago — one of those, it was a Harvard alumni workshop. So these are super highly educated, professional writers, most of them working already. And I wrote this short story about a Chinese American family in Seattle — a city I have never been to in my life, I was just making things up. And somebody was just like, is this autobiographical? And everyone was convinced — yeah, is this your family story? And I was just so tired of people assuming — this was an all-white group, of course, because I had also workshopped this at an Asian American workshop, and nobody asked that question, they just gave the critique. But this group was like, is this your story? And I looked her in the eye and I said, I'm just a good writer. And I think she—
Chatham:
Yeah.
Sophia:
—got it, because she's very smart. She was a little flustered and embarrassed, she was like, oh, of course, yeah, of course. Because I'm just like—
Chatham:
Yeah, it's like — on one hand, it's somewhat a compliment that they think it feels so authentic, but it is insulting, because it does imply that you're incapable of creating things, and that you must be drawing from your life experience. And I think people generally think that about authors, but I think the amount that you face comments like that increases when you're a minority. I think people tend to assume it a lot more. And I'm constantly getting comments like, oh, your characters on your cover — they look like you. And I'm like, first of all, I didn't illustrate them, I have a wonderful illustrator — I can only draw a stick figure, that's not me being vain. But second of all, I don't really think they totally look like me. But if they do resemble me a bit, it's because I'm writing about what it's like to live in my body. But that doesn't mean that every nuance and every experience is, you know, plucked from my personal life. I always say that I kind of spread my personal life in my books like confetti — there's little pieces here and there, but there's not enough that you can tangibly pick it all up and hold it, you know.
Sophia:
Gosh, that's such a beautiful metaphor. I think you should be a writer.
Chatham:
It's almost like we're writers or something, I don't know. But yeah, it's even interesting writing that sort of extroverted-introverted dynamic. Because even Phoebe was hard to write because she's so introverted, but then I have one of the main characters in Try Your Worst, Cleo, who is an extreme extrovert — but in a very different way than I am. Like, very laid-back, you know, 'cause I'm Jewish, so I'm an extrovert, but I'm neurotic in social situations and every situation basically. And this character is very laid-back and kind of chill, kind of stoner-like vibe. And it took me a few drafts to really nail her voice, because it was such a different experience. But other times a character can be totally different from me and that voice comes right away — I think it just kind of varies book by book, you know? But yeah, I think there is some truth to the extroverted-versus-introverted dynamic coming from my relationship. But ironically, I wrote Time and Time Again — I started writing it before I even met my partner. And people who know my partner don't believe that, because they're like, you wrote Phoebe as your partner. And I'm like, no, it's actually a coincidence, you know?
Sophia:
I know, I love that.
Chatham:
Yeah, so, you know, I don't know.
Sophia:
Like, how come all the hotties I write in my books haven't entered my life yet?
Chatham:
I think that's what my editor said to me — my editor was like, oh, you wrote your dream girl into existence. I'm like, I guess I didn't think of it that way, because they're teenagers, so it was not coming from that perspective. I'm — it's like, I'm gonna start writing that I'm best friends with a billionaire, and then that's gonna happen. Or that I'm a billionaire.
Sophia:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. My private jet is parked in the driveway.
Chatham:
It's all gonna come true.
Sophia:
It's a billionaire-on-billionaire romance — that's hot. You know, you guys don't steal that. No, no, go ahead, steal it, write it.
Chatham:
That — you know, there should be more of that, because it's usually only one. Yeah, just give us the billions that you make from it. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know, it's — I think, also, especially when I was younger, I was really drawn to — and I don't know if you'll relate to this — I've always been kind of drawn to introverts. My closest friends are extroverts, I would say, but I've always kind of — when I was younger — tried to bring them out of their shell, and kind of wanted to connect, wanted to learn more. It's like, they're so mysterious, you know?
10:00 Why we gravitate toward shy kids at the party
Sophia:
I took it upon myself — yeah, like at parties, it's like, the one who's not talking to anyone — it's my job to bring them out of the corner.
Chatham:
Yeah. Okay, good, I'm glad — I wasn't sure how universal that was. Yeah.
Sophia:
I know, but I think that's just our empathy from being kind of marginalized ourselves and feeling that way ourselves — we hate to see other people in that position.
Chatham:
Yeah, I think it comes from when I was young — I was very shy until about later in high school. And so I just never want anyone to feel excluded just because they're kind of nervous at first, you know. So I think that kind of comes out in my books, with the extrovert kind of latching onto the introvert. And it's always beautiful seeing someone who doesn't always open up kind of open up to that one person and let themselves, you know—
Sophia:
That's a trope.
Chatham:
—open a lot. Yeah. Exactly, that's what I'm using every time, trying to do. Yeah.
Sophia:
I love it.
11:13 What nobody tells you about your debut vs. your second book
So now that you are one year out from your debut, what is that like? Because a lot of people talk about the query process, about getting the agent — but then the conversation stops short as soon as we get there. But what I would love to know is: what is it like to have done your debut and be here now?
Chatham:
Yeah, that was something that was hard for me — I felt like I hadn't heard people talking about that experience of what happens after the book deal. And I've learned since that the reason you don't hear much about it is because the experiences vary wildly — especially, like, leading up to the month my book came out, I was like, what is this going to be like? Why don't I know? But it's because no one can really guarantee you everything. There are some people who are going on book tours, some people who are doing a bunch of interviews — like, I'm with a publisher who pairs me with a publicist and a marketer, so I was doing events and interviews leading up to publication, which is great. But unfortunately, some authors don't have that experience and don't do any of that. So it's hard for anyone to say what it's like.
What I can say is — I was saying this to you earlier — I feel like not a lot has changed in my personal life since the book came out. I'm trying to think if anything has changed — I mean, my health has gotten worse, so, you know, it doesn't feel very different. But my perception of publishing has changed, and my understanding of it has grown — especially of how long the life of the book really is. I had so much anxiety at first about, are people gonna find this book, are people gonna read it, is it selling — but the fact of the matter is, people aren't just gonna find it in the first week, you know, people need to tell their friends about it. And then it got some more reviews, and that brought more people to it as well. And so it's been cool to see, a year later, people picking it up for the first time. I know that probably sounds obvious, but I think when you're first starting out, you feel so much pressure about first-week sales and making a big splash and all this stuff. But, you know, some people will be a number-one New York Times bestseller for 10 weeks right from the beginning — but for most of us, people picking it up the first week are a lot of friends and family, mostly. And then other people are gonna have to take time to find it, you know. And I'm seeing, now, a year later, it pop up in all these unexpected ways, in places I didn't expect to see it. So yeah, it's exciting.
Sophia:
Not to put you on the spot, but what's a place where you didn't expect to see it in the wild?
Chatham:
I know I said that, and now I'm like, I don't even know, I think I'm just rambling — what does that mean? Well, here's what I'll say—
Sophia:
Hahaha!
Chatham:
—here's what I'll say. So, it's — when I went to — I'm going to be a total fangirl right now, okay? Because it's the No-BS podcast, so I'm gonna be a loser—
Sophia:
Please do.
Chatham:
I try not to think of authors as celebrities, because now that I'm doing it, I'm like, oh, we are just normal people who are sitting at our computers. Like, obviously famous actors are people too, but they're doing more glamorous things, like—
Sophia:
Are they, are they though?
Chatham:
Like, the really rich ones — that's a different lifestyle. But most of us authors are just home writing all the time and binge-watching TV. However, when I was in high school, I was the biggest fan of David Levithan, because he was — he wasn't the only one, but he was one of five gay YA writers. I didn't graduate that long ago — I graduated high school in 2016, but that's like a decade ago now, right? And a lot has changed in a decade. A decade ago, it was mostly David Levithan and, like, five other people who were writing gay YA books. So I was actually able to go to a meet-and-greet of his at ALA and get a book signed. And I was gushing, and I said to him — he got a Stonewall Honor for my favorite book of his, Two Boys Kissing — I adore that book, I read it, that was actually one of the first audiobooks I listened to specifically, I listened to it in high school and fell in love with it. And I told him, oh, when I got the Stonewall Honor, my first thought was, oh, this is what Two Boys Kissing got, you know. And he said, oh, what's your book? I said the title, and I was about to start describing it, and he interrupted me, and he was like, oh, I have that book. And I was like—
I actually — my friend who I mentioned earlier was there, we had just met, she was like taking all these pictures of me, getting all these angles, which was so fun. But after I said goodbye to her, I just went to the side of the conference floor and had to sit down and stare at a wall for 10 minutes. I was just like, wow, you know? And that was something I didn't even think to expect. I was excited to just talk to him, but the fact that it was very clear recognition — like, not just knowing it, but he's like, oh, it's on his shelf, you know?
Sophia:
You were like, would you like me to sign it for you?
Chatham:
Yeah, exactly, at his signing, I'm like, well, by the way, you know — and he asked me about what book I had next, and that was very nice. Another one, I would say, on the opposite front of a non-celebrity — was my mom. She was talking to a realtor. Realtors are always hustling — so when my mom connected with this realtor, of course my parents tell everybody about my book. So the realtor read my book to try to impress my parents, I guess. And basically the realtor was talking to a teenager she knew, some family friend, her niece or something. And she asks — he's like, you reading anything good? And he's like, yeah, whatever, she's trying to connect with this youth. And so, to try to sound cool, she says, I just read this book, Time and Time Again. And this teenager, unimpressed, is like, yeah. I was like, okay, I love that. Granted — could this teenager have been lying just to seem cool? Maybe, it's a possibility.
Sophia:
True, true.
Chatham:
But it's kind of interesting writing for younger people — you don't always hear about it reaching them, because, obviously, I'm not just talking to teenagers, I don't teach high school, I'm not in that environment. Hearing about that was so cool — like, just this wonderfully angsty teenager, as I once was, being like, of course, of course, you know — always hearing about my book, I love hearing about adults reading it, but hearing that it's teenagers as well is always great. I've had parents tell me they've read it with their kids, and I think that's what's really surprised me — is seeing it really reach people, not just the David Levithans of the world, but just people who need it and will connect with it.
Sophia:
Those are amazing stories that you just told me, 'cause they run the gamut — from heroes, from when we were that age and reading was everything we had to take us away, all the way to the people we are actually writing for. And so, to me — you made it. I think you made it.
Chatham:
I'm glad to hear it. Because that's the other thing — it's like, you never feel like you made it.
17:42 How to celebrate the small wins when you have big dreams
It feels like the goalpost is always moving. But I do feel more settled than I did a year ago — I was so anxious before the book came out, I had so many expectations, but also no expectations, I didn't know what to expect. And I feel like, going into the second book coming out, my expectations are way lower — to the point that, like, when things happen, I get confused. My book was in the Washington Post recently — Try Your Worst — yeah, I don't even know if I told you that, because—
Sophia:
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
Chatham:
I have been unconscious all week from flair. Yeah, and it was in the physical edition — it was a list of books that librarians recommended, and that was something I didn't expect at all, you know. So it's kind of nice having no expectations now, because when things happen, I'm like, whoa — I'm like, this book has two-star reviews now, okay, yay, people are gonna read it, okay cool! So I think — because of what you were saying previously — publishing is so unexpected, so I'm trying as much as I can to not expect anything and be pleasantly surprised. That's not my greatest skill, because I'm someone who dreams big — which is why we're here, why we're writing. But I think I'm starting to be able to lower my expectations and roll with the punches.
Sophia:
You're inspiring me by telling me that, because, you know, I also dream big — so big that everything feels like such a failure in comparison to what I accomplished. I'm like, I always wanted to be on a billboard — well, my iPod silhouette was on a billboard, but you can't see my darn face. So it's like — so I'm like, man, you know. And so it just, for me, it feels like everything I do falls just a little bit short. And so with this — I know friends, and I'm sure you know many people, who have these high six-figure deals, even seven-figure deals, you know, and it's like, oh wow, I wish I could have all my financial dreams come true and not live in destitution the way I have been. But when I hear you talk about winning your awards, or just those quiet, really meaningful victories — like, oh, I was in the Washington Post, or librarians like my book, or just this kid liked my book — it's like, that, to me, feels like such a win, hearing it from the outside. I'm like, okay, you can still get some kind of small satisfaction out of this process.
Chatham:
Yeah, I think that's key, and that's what I've learned too, because I was the same way when my first book was coming out — it felt like I had to get everything, or I was a failure. But it was just such an unhealthy way to live, and I had to kind of let go of it and just let go of expectations. 'Cause it's so easy to get caught up in, like, well, that person made a million dollars, and this and this — but I think something that helped me too was, sometimes I would be jealous of someone about their book deal or whatever, and then I would talk to them and discover it's not all it's cracked up to be. And I know that people see my social media, see me being flown out to ALA and staying at the Ritz, and are like, whoa, they have it made — and I'm like, half the time I can barely get out of bed, and I'm just watching reruns of Chopped, you know. It's — when you peel back the curtain, it's not always glamorous. But I do think you really have to try to celebrate the small wins, or some of the big wins, even if they're wins, and especially if they're wins you don't expect. And I think — I'm not always successful, I will admit — but I'm trying to just let go of expectations and enjoy the ride.
Sophia:
I love that you did bring up the jealousy.
21:18 Embracing the reality of jealousy in the Writing Community
I think it's such a dirty word — "you shouldn't be jealous." And I'm just like, come on, we're humans, we have feelings, we have envy, we experience all our feelings, including jealousy. And I think one of the healthiest things — and the reason why we have such a strong friendship — is that we've never been afraid to say to each other, I'm so jealous that you get to do this, and I'm jealous that you get to do that. And that's been very healthy, because it's like, we acknowledge that feeling, but it doesn't change anything, it doesn't harm the relationship. It's just more of an acknowledgment of a passing emotion that is inherent to just being a person. And so, as writers, I think it is our duty to be very honest. And I call this No BS — it's our duty, in our writing, it's a responsibility for us to carry that torch and show people: you can feel all of your feelings and be who you are and still be okay.
Chatham:
Yeah, yeah. And jealousy is very stigmatized, but I think it's very normal, especially in this industry, because it's so out of our control. I mean, it's not like — I have friends who have very conventional nine-to-fives, where it's like, every three years you get a promotion, and so in that sense there's not really any feeling of, well, that person got this and that person got that, because it's like, well, just wait three years and then you're there, you know? But in our case — three years! You could have one friend who's a bestseller, one friend who has no books out—
Sophia:
Who left writing.
Chatham:
—one friend, yeah, definitely, or who has delayed their book a few years because their kid got sick, or they're busy with their job, or, you know, it's such a range of experience. And I think the important thing is to also understand that, because of how this industry shifts, there will be times where you will be jealous of someone, and a month later you could get something and they're jealous of you. I've definitely experienced that with friends, where it's like, I'm going to auction with my book and they're like, I wish I could do that, you know, and then a few months later they're getting this really cool publicity opportunity, and it's like — you really don't know. And so that's the thing — I don't even think you push the feeling away, I think you let yourself feel it and not let it affect your friendship. Because I know some writers do, in interesting ways — I've known writers who only want to be friends with people more successful than them, because they think it'll bring them success. But I've also known writers who only want to be friends with people less successful than them, because it makes them feel successful. And I don't think that's how we should be picking our friends. I don't know, that's just me, I think, you know.
Sophia:
Mine is on whether I can read your book while I'm on the toilet.
Chatham:
That's a good metric, because you never know what'll happen. I mean, that's just not a nice way to go through life. But it's also, you know, if you shun someone because they haven't sold a book yet, and then maybe even a week later they sell a book for seven figures, you know, then who looks like a fool, you know, it's just — ew. Yeah, it's like, then you get to—
Sophia:
All of you guys who won't — who don't talk to me anymore, you're not coming on the private jet.
Chatham:
—get to... you just had like a Pretty Woman moment. Big mistake, huge.
Sophia:
Big mistake. As I'm holding up my, like, Pulitzer Prize.
Chatham:
Yeah, like a big mistake! Look at my Stonewall sticker!
Sophia:
Look how lesbian that looks.
Chatham:
Yeah, oh my goodness. But I think that actually ties back into the extroverted thing too, because I think that connection is so important, and it's so important to have friends who are writers who understand how weird this career is. And you just can't let jealousy get in the way of those relationships, or you'll never have any — because it's gonna happen at some point, you know, unless you're a flawless human who never gets jealous, in which case, I'm jealous of you.
Sophia:
That's lovely. Again, happy book birthday — I am so excited that your second baby is out in the world. Tell us where we can find this lovely, lovely book, and where we can find you.
Chatham:
Yes, I know — I got so into the conversation, I'm such an extrovert, I forgot to talk about the book! So, Try Your Worst is a cozy mystery — it's about two girls who have been rivals since birth, who are forced to team up to figure out who is framing them for a series of petty crimes that they did not commit. And so, while they dig into the mystery of why someone is trying to tear apart their futures, they also learn that things are different between them than they realize — so maybe they fall for each other along the way, I don't know. So, you can read the mystery now, it should be wherever books are sold — I don't know off the top of my head, but you can order it online at all the major retailers, and I'm sure Sophia will share links, and you can also—
Sophia:
Yeah, we will definitely drop links where you can go to Chatham's website, so you can also buy through the links from there.
Chatham:
Yes, and it's available in audio, ebook, and physical, on ChatGreenfield.com. So yeah — I think it's angsty at times, but I think it's a fun one, it's a romp. It's fun to write, grueling at times, but fun to write.
Sophia:
Like life.
Chatham:
Yes, exactly. I hope it'll be fun to read too.
Sophia:
I know it will be. Thank you so much for coming on again to The Sophia Chang Show — it is always such a pleasure to have you.
Chatham:
Thank you for having me. This is the best place to celebrate my books. Is it the first birthday, or zero birthday? The birth of the book.
Sophia:
I know! Yay! We will see you all next time!
Chatham:
Subscribe.
Sophia:
I gotta do that — what's that MrBeast YouTube thing, or whatever they do?
Chatham Greenfield (27:01)
In the — what is it, the box? I don't know, whatever it is these days.
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Sophia Chang is a Reese's Book Club LitUp fellow, disabled dancer, and extroverted writer. She hosts The Sophia Chang Show podcast where she shares No B.S. publishing stories and advice she wishes she'd known. Subscribe if you don't want to cry alone.
