Writers, Don't Follow Your Bliss — Follow Your Anger Instead w/ Kevin Chung Pt 2
You know what's more motivating than following your bliss? Spite and envy.
Hear the great traditional publishing tale of woe! How dropping out of grad school twice launched a new career and the worst self-help guru writing advice that will keep you poor.
Are your asian parents right?
Should you be a Writer or Accountant? This FREE Decision Tree Will Tell You!Read Full Transcript
00:00 Embracing the Suck Counter
Sophia Chang (00:00)
I have said the word "sucks" so many times on this video — we're going to have to do like a compilation of me saying it.
00:33 How I Got a 100% Query Letter Request Rate from Literary Agents
I want a book deal so badly, and I have worked so hard, and I've gone up to bat so many times. When I got the agent, I was constantly asking, how much of it is a timing thing? Because a lot of it is luck and timing, and that's so out of your control. How much of it is just market fluctuations that nobody has the correct finger on? And how much is it that I suck?
And I ask that all the time. At my level, I'm working on my seventh novel right now. I have celebrity book club backing. My last query was 100% request rate. There is no doubt that I am really at the top of my game and only getting better at this point in my life. But I still ask myself, how do I suck and how can I fix that suck?
Kevin: So what is it that makes you think you have 100% request rate — which I don't think that's common, obviously. So what is it about your success or lack of success that has you thinking that, and what are you doing to correct that?
Sophia: That I suck? Anyway, yeah. So a huge part of traditional publishing — and even self-publishing, but in a different way — is selling. And boy can I sell, baby. I realized this when I became a college admissions coach.
01:17 Dropping out of Grad School Twice Launched a New Career
So I dropped out of grad school twice. And both times I had scholarships, yes I did. I finished Harvard, just so you all know — I do have the degree that counts. But I went to a school for counseling psychology and I had a diversity scholarship. It was this really horrible white hippie school. It was just this racist nightmare. And so I left, dropped out of that one.
And then I got into journalism school on a full ride in New York City. But this was 15 years ago. Now I think I would have had accommodations. But back then, if you were in the film and TV and the broadcast category, they made you carry your own equipment. I am five foot two and I'm not a big person. This is back in the early 2010s — you have a six-foot tripod for the camera, and you have to have all the tapes.
I couldn't carry 50-pound equipment. And you know how all the other girls were doing it? Everybody's boyfriend and husband was carrying it around for them. I literally couldn't carry my own equipment and I just had to leave.
When I look back, that was really a shame that nobody reached out and was like, why are you leaving? Can we help you somehow? Because now it'd be like, this is discrimination. You can't force people who are physically unable — this is also not realistic, because in real life, you've got a burly cameraman carrying the camera for you. You've got a —
Kevin: Right, exactly. No one is carrying around their own equipment.
Sophia: These were just difficulties that I kind of had to face that were just common when you're just a small Asian girl in America.
But I discovered after getting into all these grad schools and dropping out that I was damn good at getting into school. So I made a career out of it. And so I founded Wise Child Admissions Coaching — wisechildcoaching.com, for all you moms out there. And I started helping kids get into colleges that they had no business getting into. And I did really well by them. Tons of early admissions to Ivy League schools. Got a kid a hundred thousand dollar scholarship.
You have to take all of your failures and you kind of have to just bounce off them and be like, how can I make this a win?
03:43 Trap of Overfocusing on the Query
To circle back to that, the overall question is that I've gone to the point where I've queried so many times. I know what makes a good query, what makes a great pitch. I love live pitches because I can utilize my personality, and there's nothing like when you see somebody face to face — there's that connection there, even if it's through Zoom.
So you can sell yourself and get into a school, but can you get out of the school? Are you able to do the work, right?
And you can get a query request. You can get a manuscript request. But that usually doesn't translate into a yes. Most of the time you get no's. Even as a Reese's Book Club fellow, I got no's. That doesn't always translate. Same thing — you get a great agent, you get it submitted to a Big Five publisher. The agent has a relationship, so right away they'll read it. Most of the time you get a no.
There's the selling aspect that I think people over-focus on, where it's like, oh, can you write a great query? Can you write a great pitch? And I think they focus on that because that's easy to sell. But once you get that foot in the door, it doesn't mean they'll allow you to stay in the room. And that, I think, is where I'm like, is there a code I need to crack? That's where I ask myself, do I suck?
Or is it that you haven't found the right person? And it's kind of impossible to answer that because of politics. You can't exactly go to the editor and be like, hey, can you tell me, is it because you just personally don't like this subject matter? Or can you tell me how I suck? They don't have time to tell you how you suck. You kind of have to figure it out.
I can only control the suckage part on my own. And I have said the word "sucks" so many times on this video — we're going to have to do like a compilation of me saying it. And so I can only work on that side and just see, how can I overcome any blind spots that I may not have? Due to hubris, maybe I think I'm so great and I've fallen into a bad habit — so how can I fix that?
05:35 Does Writing to Market Actually Work in Traditional Publishing?
And so, do I have to get more beta readers? Do I have to hire an editor? I have to just kind of focus hard on that. But there is always that part that's like, should I pay more attention to market forces? Should I be — what do people like? Should I be writing more to market? I don't even know what that means. Do you, Kevin? Do you know what writing to market means?
Kevin: I mean, I think that's just following whatever is hot. But by the time you do that, unless you can turn it out in like a couple months or less — like, that's already changed, right? So there's no predicting what the future is going to be. I don't think, unless it's like one of those timeless classics where you know, okay, this is always going to have interest. I don't know that that's actually a thing.
Yeah. Other than — I think romance, just like as a general category, is always going to have its audience, right?
Sophia: Right.
Kevin: Something like sci-fi — they're all broad, though. Everything that people are looking for are the very specifics of the thing that make it part of whatever is trending at this moment on TikTok and people are talking about, right? So you can't predict it because it moves too quickly.
Sophia: I know, I know. And sometimes you do find that one right editor. There was an editor — she and I share one of our favorite movies, and I wrote a book that was a lot like that movie that had this recursive time travel kind of thing happening.
She loved that book, but she couldn't get the rest of the team on board — like marketing. You know, once you bring in the whole rest of the team in trad publishing, then we've got 10 cooks in the kitchen. You got to get them all to agree.
Kevin: Yeah. I think that's what people often overlook — the luck element of anything in success. Because if you take like the most famous recent example, it's probably like J.K. Rowling, or however many rejections, and ending up with somebody finally taking a chance.
Sophia: I feel like I need to dispel this myth. I get told that all the time because, you know, because of my writing Harry Potter fan fiction, they'll be like, "That's okay, J.K. Rowling." I'm like, she actually — I heard — only got rejected by 13 editors. Thirteen. That's like half a submission.
Kevin: Yeah, but some people give up after like one or two. I'm talking about people who are expecting acceptance right away. Thirteen is still a lot, because you have to go through the thought process of "this sucks," right? Because you think they didn't like it because it sucks — not because that person is particular to whatever. So it's like, everything is obviously relative.
Sophia: I must be inured to rejection. I don't want to sell myself short — there's always interest, but it's no longer one person anymore. It's you're going up against a corporation and you're saying, please, do you think I can sell commercially at an end cap in Target?
Kevin: Yeah. And they're only thinking about, is this guaranteed to succeed? Versus before, they were willing to take chances.
Sophia: Yeah, it used to be good writing was enough to get you in. And so I was like, I'm a shoo-in. I'm my favorite writer. But it isn't anymore.
08:45 Follow Your Bliss is Privileged B.S.
Kevin: What have been the most difficult aspects of reinvention, and what did you do to get past? You know, there's always humps in the way to whatever success means to you, like getting to the next step of your journey.
Sophia: Yeah, I go against everything that the gurus say. And I'm not trying to be contrarian. I just think there's a lot of marketing speak that sounds really nice and gets a thousand likes on Substack Notes that actually doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
And so this whole "redefine success" — I'm like, I'm happy for you if that works for you, but we still live in an actual world where we need to feed ourselves, and you need money to buy food. So let's be honest here. If you're not making any money, you will be out on the street hungry.
And I don't know if it's because I'm children of immigrants and war refugees. To us, it's like, I'm just trying to eat here. I'm just trying to be fed. And then once I'm fed, I'm trying to be clothed and housed — housed in a safe place. Once you go up that Maslow ladder and get up there, it's like — I feel like only the top top people who are making six figures off of their Substack paid subscribers are going, "You got to follow your bliss, redefine success, stay in your own lane." And I just want to be like, shut up. You are so privileged.
I can't stand when privileged people try to give advice to those of us who are like, I can't pay my medical bill. You know, like, I have real problems out here. Following my bliss is if Covered California just keeps going forever, because — thank you, Obamacare. I get an infusion every four weeks. I don't think I'm going to tell you how much money it is — you would throw up. The fact that I have health insurance to cover that, that's my main concern. So of course I'm not sitting here going, "As long as I write a good book" — that is not success. Hell no, I need to sell this book.
Those of us who are chronically ill, who are not coming from this privilege model — talk to us about what success is. Talk to us about that hustle, because that is a totally different story. And I speak from somebody who bought into those gurus in the past. I literally spent thousands of dollars following these people and buying their courses, thinking I'm going to be a life coach. And I actually was very good. I give 110% into everything I do. I was good, but it's not like I made the six figures they were all making, because it's an MLM. This top coach gets all these other coaches to buy her products, and they get other coaches, and it's a whole thing. It's a whole feeder economy.
I would say stay away from that kind of "redefine success" until you get to the point where you're making bank, and then you can start spouting that BS. "Redefine success" — I hate to say this — this is part of the genderization of it. I think that they are selling a lot of this to women, and I hate it.
I feel like guys will — like if you listen to Gary Vee, first of all, I like him because he's from New Jersey and he drops F-bombs every five seconds. I love that. And they can — they have the freedom to say more things and they will kind of give it to you straight. Whereas these woo-woo female ones, they're always like, "Watch your nervous systems." And they try to sell this kind of soft New Age to women because they think, okay, this is what we need and this is what speaks to us. And yeah, it is what we need — our nervous systems are overtaxed from this world — but don't patronize us that way.
We also want to get ours. I'm always telling women, you need to invest. If you have even a hundred extra dollars, put that money in the market. Do something with it. Grow that money. Get yours. Success first — get your Maslow's hierarchy.
With traditional publishing, what a lot of people don't talk about — and I've seen other men say it straight out, but women won't say this straight out — is that a lot of us can't survive on our own as writers. We have significant others or spouses who are footing the bill for our living. We have to be honest about the economics of things, especially as writers and creators of color.
Right, okay, soapbox over. Thank you guys. Mic drop.
12:41 If it Won't Sustain You, It Will Make You Resentful
Kevin: Yeah, I think it's important to know that the thing that is worth doing — that's not going to sustain you, right? It's, how can I sustain myself and do the thing at the same time? It's not either/or, it's both. I can do both if I can, right? Not everyone can, but how do you balance making money and doing the thing that you like to do?
So I think you need to be able to balance the fact that you also have to survive, and also have some sort of contentment or entertainment for yourself, because living a life just surviving is not an easy way to do it. And it will lead to your thing not being as good.
Because if you rely on that thing and you can't get there, you're going to resent it.
Sophia: Oh, I love that. You're going to resent it. Ooh. I love that. Hmm. I feel like you're solving some of my problems. I'm having a hard time with my latest rewrite because I'm like, I don't want to do it one more time because the stakes are so high.
14:14 Balancing Platform with Finding Time to Write
Kevin: Yeah. What is your current reinvention? So what do you think it is that you're going to try to do this particular round?
Sophia: I love that you said "this particular round," because it is an iterative process. And you're even helping me remind me of that — that it's OK to do the cycle. Because it's not that you're going around again. You're kind of in a spiral. You're going around again, but you're going a little bit higher each time.
Or maybe you're descending down to hell. I don't know. Whichever direction, as long as you're going somewhere.
For me, I don't have an answer. I am struggling with balancing the writing. Before I rebooted my podcast and came on Substack, before that, I had spent six years completely off all social media and mostly offline as well. I don't follow the news because I need mental health. So, you know, all I did was write. Well, all I did was learn to walk again. Then when I could walk again, I wrote.
And it was so great because my rate of production was so high — I could churn out books so much faster. But when I realized that people were getting rejected for not having a platform, I was like, okay, I need to get on this, even though I kind of hate it. No, very much hate it. But you know, it's not all bad, because I met you, Kevin. And all of you guys.
So now I'm struggling with — I would love to go back to being in the writing cave, the revision cave, where I would even ignore my best friends for a week, which for an extrovert is a very long time. It's like five years of being a monk. And I would just write all day long and never emerge. And I don't feel like I can do that.
And I don't know if it's because my brain has re-bought in to the whole social media thing of, you need to respond to all of these comments and you need to go like other people's notes and all that stuff. I do feel that pressure to keep producing the podcast. I hear that you only get about 15 days to three weeks — if you don't produce another episode, you drop out of, not just the Apple algorithm, but you drop out of automatically being downloaded into people's podcast players.
And I'm like, okay, great. Same thing with the YouTube algorithm. Like, my gosh, I gotta make sure there's a short to go with my long form. Otherwise I'm going to drop out. And see, you can see how I'm really in the YouTube ecosystem. This is the shape of the Shorts and the long form. Like, it's emblazoned in my body right now. I'm embodying it.
I'm struggling. If you guys have tips, please send them my way, but I find it nigh on impossible to be able to write the way I used to — like 24/7, nothing else — and still keep this up.
Kevin: I feel like everyone — I haven't done this yet, but — goes through the cycles of, okay, I'm ramping up to release the thing. The difficulty I think you're having is that your thing is not out yet, so you can't point anybody anywhere.
Sophia: Yeah, I have thought about, should I just start pre-marketing? Which is what the TikTok people do to great success, right? So I'm like, should I borrow a page from that book and start pre-marketing? The problem is, when you pre-market something that isn't set in stone, my biggest fear is plagiarism.
Kevin: Yeah, I mean, there's always the danger of publicly sharing anything and having people take or borrow or whatever it is — remix your thing. I think the only thing that you can do is be the most your version that is unreplicable, essentially. So that they can try, but the thing is going to miss your voice, or the way that you write, or the way that you portray characters, or whatever it is.
There's only one way that you do it, and people are not going to be able to replicate it. So even if they have the same idea, it would not be a good story.
The only issue I think is if people are burned by that person, whether or not they would figure things out —
Sophia: Saturation of the market. Yeah, I was going to say, the only problem with that is if it gets oversaturated, then the trend's over by the time it comes out through trad publishing.
But I do want to say, I really love what you just said, Kevin. It's like, you can try, but you won't even come close. Like, that's going to be my new — I'm always looking for mic drop taglines.
21:34 Best Advice for Authors Starting Over from Scratch
Kevin: A couple more questions left. What has been the most difficult part of reinventing yourself?
Sophia: It's the starting from zero. I might be doing it wrong. I just want you to know — just because I've done it a million times and I feel like I'm reaching Madonna levels of it, doesn't mean I'm doing it right. I could be messing it up each and every time. Because I feel like I really start from zero. And that's tough.
When I was doing my whole New Age astrology woo-woo life coaching thing, about 13 years ago, I had a list. I had like this list of 500, 600 people. And I just kind of let them fall by the wayside, to the point where my ESP already shut down the account and everything, just because I was busy being blind and in a wheelchair. I didn't go back to that and leverage that community or that audience or anything.
I'm kind of starting from zero again, so I'm like, maybe I didn't do it quite right. But it does feel like every time I do it — at least for me — I have to do a scorched earth. I need to just get rid of everything and just start fresh. And even if I'm bringing in skills and experience that I've learned from the previous, it's so different. I'll do the same thing with my website — like, complete different overhaul, change my branding, my taglines, everything.
And so yeah, I think the kind of starting from zero and constantly feeling like I'm Sisyphus and I'm back at the bottom of the hill pushing that damn boulder up all over again is the hardest part. To me, it feels like I'm not actually getting any traction. So again, I don't think I'm doing it right.
Kevin: I think, like I said, everything is relative. So people will look at your part of the journey and be like, okay, she's making her way there, right? Versus if you're starting at zero, like where you were — I don't know — a year or so ago, right? What does that look like to somebody who's starting from scratch right now and deciding, I need to reinvent myself right now?
And obviously there's an infinite number of ways to do this. You can borrow a little bit here, start a little bit here, and kind of get a head start. But I think it's different for everyone.
Sophia: It is. But you know, I feel like I'm dropping connections along the way, because I think about the people who have been in Hollywood, for instance, who stayed and have been there for three decades. And it's like, man, they can pick up the phone and call somebody and get something done. And I don't think I can do that.
And even when I first started querying — I started as a YA writer. And I did get some interest in those books back then. But I gave up too soon. I don't have the grit that I have now — like that dog with a bone thing — back then when I was doing it. And I made so many connections. I have some pretty famous people on that old Facebook that I nuked.
And I don't feel like I can call them up. I used to have the private number of somebody who's making millions of dollars, I'm just going to say. Like, I don't feel like I could call her up and be like, hey, could you please introduce me to — you know? I don't think I have that. And so I don't know if it's because this industry just doesn't work the same way, or it's just like — again, I'm like, did I do it wrong?
Kevin: Yeah. I mean, it's hard to say. It's just tough. What advice would you give to somebody that is trying to make a reinvention? That could be like, don't burn all the bridges, or whatever?
Sophia: Don't do it. Yeah. If you're doing it the way I did — out of necessity or circumstance, if you're pivoting because it's just not working and you're forced to and you have to — then I would actually say you're in the best position, because it's the "nothing left to lose." You already know this way didn't work. I tried it and I can't go that way. So there's a freedom in dropping that.
And I think maybe I do go scorched earth because I kind of need that freedom. I need that tabula rasa. I am a hardcore pantser. I can't pre-outline for the life of me. What am I outlining? There's no book yet. I don't know what the book is about. I have to write it.
And so for me, I think I like that whole "wipe it clean and start over." I think pantsing is really deranged to a lot of people, for good reason, because we have to start over so many times and we rewrite that book so often — it would make you scream. I think you have to hone that ability to see that blankness as a freedom rather than a fright.
Kevin: A lot of people will see the blank slate, especially on the artistic side, and be like, shit, what am I supposed to do? But I think every blank slate is an opportunity to create the thing that you really want to create, versus the thing that you've been holding onto or the thing that people tell you to do. Right? So, obviously there's two sides to every coin. So what is it that you can do when you're starting over — to actually do it the way you actually want to do it?
23:25 How Anger, Envy, and "Bad" Emotions Make You a Better Writer
Sophia: Yeah. I think if I were going to just leave you guys with anything, it would be a radical acceptance of all sides of you — including and especially the so-called negative or dark feelings, emotions, and sides. Because there is a toxic positivity wave that's been going on in social media for about the last decade. That's like this whole "follow your bliss" thing. Like, you don't have to follow your bliss. You can follow your anger.
Bitterness and spite and jealousy have been huge motivators for me. Just being so frustrated at my circumstances and then writing my way through that has fueled some of the most honest writing. Your writing just has to be honest. It doesn't have to be factual. It just has to be honest. And you get to that honesty by saying, it's okay for me to feel angry and bitter and envious.
And, "I want what that person has" — and when you want what that person has, that's fantastic. Because that means you have a goal. When you feel that envy, your body is telling you, that's the thing I want — bring me there. And then you got to ride that wave.
And so I'm always kind of riding the wave of all of my feelings. Any of it — whether it's fun and I just want to fuck around and write something terribly smutty and ridiculous and out of control, or whether it's just like, I can do this. You know, just whatever wave you're riding, just ride that wave.
And if you can radically accept all the feelings — ride it to ride it. Woo, I like that.
Kevin: Yeah.
Sophia: Yeah, Bridget. If you can accept all of yourself and all of your feelings, then you can accept all of your characters' feelings. And then that'll make you a stronger writer. I guarantee you this.
Kevin: That's so interesting, because a lot of us can box that up. I think we all probably do this a little bit, if not all the time. We don't let the thing that we're feeling affect us. We just move on. We either distract ourselves with stuff like TikTok, or we tell ourselves, "You need to be more positive." But in order to make your way out of anything — especially if you look at the cycle of grief — there's a whole thing you have to go through in order to make it through.
So the next time anyone is feeling the thing — write, or talk about it, or record, or whatever it is that you need to do. Just think it out, so that way you can use it instead of letting it burden you.
Sophia: Feel the thing. That's our — yeah, that's what we're leaving you with. Feel the thing, everyone.
25:58 1-Minute Writing Challenge: Write the Most Honest Thing You've Ever Written
Kevin: Yeah. Do you have one tip that you would give to anyone who's trying to reinvent themselves, or a challenge?
Sophia: Yeah, I feel like you guys are ready for a challenge. I would say — I'm going to keep it very small. And I'm going to say, do this right now. The second we turn this off — so that, you know, I can go pee — the second we turn this off, I want you to write a note that is more honest than you have been in the last week, or maybe even the last month. Or the last ever.
Just: "I am feeling this. This is what it's like to be me." Because when you are writing a novel, that is literally what we're writing. We're just saying, this is what it's like to be me, this character. This is what it's like to live this life. And we want to know — what is it like to live your life?
So yeah, try it. I want to see all these notes. Tag me in it so I can see it, so I can like it.
Kevin: Yeah. Everyone, write your notes to Sophia or tag it to this post, wherever you find this in some manner. And let us —
Sophia: I'm going to get all crazy and I'll be like, ooh, ooh, didn't know that.
Kevin: Good material for a book, I would say. Yeah. Well, this has been a lot of fun, like I knew it would be. Where can people keep up to date with you, if they're interested in your writing or your helping people write, or whatever?
Sophia: Yeah, no, if you need to find your voice, I'm your girl. I will get you there and I will get you there fast. sophiachang.com. If you're on Substack and you haven't subscribed to me — subscribe, don't follow. I always say subscribe, don't follow, because we are trying to build our email lists and we want to be able to take each other with us no matter what happens to Substack, TikTok, or anything. So subscribe, don't follow. And yeah, sophiachang.com. I would love to work with you, and I can't wait to see your notes — your brave notes. Be brave.
Kevin Chung (27:33)
Awesome. Well, thanks, Sophia, again. And thanks, everyone, for tuning in.
